Jingle: Rund ums Parlament, der Podcast des österreichischen Parlaments.
Tatjana LUKÁŠ: Hallo und herzlich Willkommen zu einer neuen Folge von "Rund ums Parlament" – dem Podcast des österreichischen Parlaments. Mein Name ist Tatjana Lukáš, schön, dass ihr wieder dabei seid! In den vergangenen Folgen haben wir darüber gesprochen, wie das österreichische Parlament international tätig wird. Und da gab es überraschend viel zu besprechen – von der EU-Gesetzgebung über diplomatische Tätigkeiten oder Wahlbeobachtungen in anderen Ländern bis hin zur weltweiten Stärkung der Institution Parlament als solcher. Aber die Mitglieder der hohen Häuser der Welt helfen sich auch gegenseitig, wenn es darum geht, ihre Aufgaben zuhause besser zu erledigen. Darüber, wie diese Art von Zusammenarbeit ganz praktisch aussieht, spreche ich heute mit meinen beiden Gästen. Und das tue ich – Ihr habt es sicher schon gehört – nicht irgendwo da draußen in Wien bei einem Spaziergang, sondern seit langem einmal wieder im Studio. Aber nicht in irgendeinem Studio – wir sitzen hier im brandneuen TV-Studio der Parlamentsdirektion. Es ist wunderschön geworden! Es leuchten Studiolichter von der Decke, Kameras umringen uns. Ein sehr schönes repräsentatives Bild des Parlaments begleitet uns im Hintergrund. Wir haben hier heute die Freude, in einem sehr professionell ausgestatteten TV-Studio aufzunehmen. Und ihr fragt euch: Warum Studio? Weil einer unserer Gäste ist nicht hier, in Wien, sondern in Podgorica, der Hauptstadt Montenegros. Ganz passend zu unserem Thema "internationale Kooperationen". Und es gibt noch eine Besonderheit in dieser Folge: Wir werden nämlich heute Englisch miteinander sprechen. And this is why I say hello Montenegro, hello Tijana Rosandić. Welcome to our podcast.
Tijana ROSANDIĆ: Hello Wien. Thank you for inviting me.
LUKÁŠ: I have to say that it has the flavor of a Eurovision Contest, right?
ROSANDIĆ: Yes, I see that.
LUKÁŠ: That's very funny in this setting. May I introduce you, Mrs. Rosandić? You are, amongst other things, foreign affairs advisor in the Secretary General's office of the Parliament of Montenegro and national correspondent for the European Parliament. But apart from that, you are also the Montenegrin project leader of the INTER PARES project. We are going to talk about that a lot more today. INTER PARES is funded by the European Union and it is, that's what its title says, a global project to strengthen the capacity of parliaments. And in the context of this program, you work together withe, my second guest today. Hello to you.
Katharina STOURZH: Hello, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here together with you and Tijana, with you online. Great that we have this talk today.
LUKÁŠ: Pleasure to have you in this studio here live with me. How do you think the TV studio turned out?
STOURZH: I'm quite impressed, actually. And it's the first time for me to be here, so it's kind of a privilege.
LUKÁŠ: Right? Mrs. Stourzh, you are Head of the Department of Parliamentary Cooperations in the Austrian Parliament. Among other things, you are responsible for the development and implementation of parliamentary cooperation. Is that right?
STOURZH: Yes, exactly. That's the task of our division together with the whole administration, with the MPs and, of course, our partners.
LUKÁŠ: On its website, to talk a little more about INTER PARES that we introduced before, the purpose of INTER PARES reads like this. And, dear listeners, it will get easier to understand everything after that sentence. Be prepared. This is a political slang and we are going to explain that afterwards. It reads like this: "To strengthen the capacity of parliaments in partner countries by enhancing their legislative, oversight, representative, budgetary and administrative functions." So, Mrs. Stourzh, this is your turn to explain us what that means in real life. Please give us a few examples.
STOURZH: Yes, of course. Well, actually it's very easy. On a very practical point of view, it's all about exchanging experiences of best practices. For instance, how do MPs exercise their oversight function in the parliaments? What kind of tools within the rules of procedure do they have? What rights of questions, the so-called interpolation rights, for instance? How is this organised in the different parliaments? And for instance, we talked about it, how it is organised in the Montenegrin parliament, how it is organised in the Austrian parliament. And what can we learn from each other? How was the development also made within the rules of procedures? But also, for instance, how is the EU-coordination and the process of EU-accession? How was it organised in the Austrian parliament and are there best practices for the Montenegrin parliament, for instance, to learn about that? But also it's about the question of ELAW, about human resources. The whole question, as you were saying, the whole structure of the parliament and the parliamentary administration, how can it be strengthened? And then we have actually two tracks. We have, of course, the work on the administrative level, but also on the political level. And in all these projects we will talk about, MPs are very often involved, but it's true that the focus of these projects is often on the administrative element.
LUKÁŠ: Now we heard a lot of examples, but we kept to be on the surface. So there is no real practical story that blows up in front of my mind. Is there one thing we can pick out? For example, how do you enhance the oversight functions of the Montenegrin parliament practically? And we can pick it out and tell a story about this one.
STOURZH: Of course, there are two examples. There are two colleagues from our budget office who went to Montenegro. Although we also had an online meeting still due to Covid and it was kind of a workshop. And maybe Tijana can also then come in here and explain it a little bit from her side. So we had a workshop. What's the work of the budget office? Why was it implemented? Why is it important to have such a budget office to serve the MPs to do their financial oversight? On the other hand, we had a meeting and also workshop and seminar, for instance, on the questions how MPs, at the beginning of a new legislative period, are introduced to the whole parliamentary daily work and daily business. What would they need? What are all the services offered by the parliamentary administration? And here it was very interesting. Tijana, if you remember, we had these workshops and when our colleagues from the Austrian parliamentary administration came back, they really learned a lot also from your parliament. And then they tried to implement what they learned and what they see, how you do it, in our onboarding project and service center project for our start of the legislative period. So there are many examples, I think, and actually very concrete work is done with the goal to support and to give best practices, in this case for the Montenegrin parliament. We will have a project, hopefully, with other countries where we also work very down to earth to really facilitate for the colleagues in administration, what they need. And then we also bring back a lot of experience for our work here.
LUKÁŠ: I think that's a really good point for Mrs. Rosandić to jump in. How does the INTER PARES project form itself from your point of view?
ROSANDIĆ: I will pick up on Mrs. Stourzh's example of the Austrian parliamentary budgetary office, which is a great example of how this project was very valuable for us and how it actually worked in practice. We expressed our interest in strengthening several mechanisms that we use for oversight, for control of the government. That was one component and the other was harmonization. So alignment of national laws with the whole vast body of EU-laws. And within the strengthening component, we had our priorities. But also during the conversation, while we were still preparing the project, the Austrian parliament, like other partners as well, expressed what they're good at. And one of the things that we picked up on was also the parliamentary budgetary office. And that is one of the values of this project. It was very flexible and we could add things as we went along. So as we discussed, it would appear that we could benefit from examples of other countries that could be useful for us in the area of the exchange of experience. On a concrete level, this is always about the procedures. We have our own procedures. But if we see, for example, in your budgetary office that something works better, then we try not to implement exactly the same, but tailor something that you have, something that is efficient and then bring it back to our parliament.
LUKÁŠ: Here a very human question comes up in my mind: How hard is it to implement new ways for people who work in the parliament, for example, for 30 years? And now there is EU and now there is cooperation. How do they react to that?
ROSANDIĆ: It depends. For us, for the administration, it's a smooth transition. Especially if you have people with enthusiasm to push things forward. It does not only depend on the administration, you have to have the right type of setting and you have to have also political decisions to move something forward. So there are a lot of factors, also external, that depend on how quick the change can be implemented. But I think the will to do something is the first and I guess the most important step.
LUKÁŠ: That's true. It sounds like it's civil servants who are talking to each other in this projects, not parliamentarians. Is that true?
ROSANDIĆ: Yes and no. Today we're speaking from the point of civil servants. So I guess the focus will be on our work more than on the work of the parliamentarians. But the project was designed to cater both the needs of the parliamentarians and the work of civil servants. Of course, the activities that were set up for parliamentarians were different. It was mostly dialogue and talks and exchange of experience. And then on our side there was also exchange of experience, but to some extent there was also capacity building, especially for harmonization. In the end, I have to admit that of all the activities that we planned, we conducted everything that was planned for the service, for the administration. But then some components, some activities that were devised for parliamentarians were not conducted until the end because of the very active and very vibrant political scene in Montenegro. So we had major political activities, major political events. Two governments changed, speakers changed. We had early parliamentary elections. All that affected not just regular parliamentary processes, but it, in a way, hindered our implementation of the activities of the project.
LUKÁŠ: How is the saying? You go with the flow, right?
ROSANDIĆ: Yes, and that's why the project was great. We could adapt as we went. The effort was not only on our side and INTER PARES that coordinated everything but also on the colleagues, from Austria and the other six countries, six parliaments that actually were very full of understanding and were willing to accommodate the changes that needed to be done in order to proceed with the project. So thank you.
STOURZH: What you said is interesting here in that project. You have the flexibility in many ways because you can adapt very quickly. You can add activities which hadn't been planned. You can make many changes. And it's true, very often in this project the focus is on the administrative level. But also in the other project there are always elements included where you try to involve MPs. But of course, there's also the saying, politicians come and go and the administration stays. So to also have a sustainability in the projects and in the capacity-building-activities, it is important, of course, that there is a good exchange between the administrations. I think we will talk about it later, too. This really is a huge added value for all participants in the projects, be it the beneficiary parliament or the other partners. And another advantage of the INTER PARES project and other projects is that we work together, as Tijana had mentioned, with other countries. So it was not only Austria taking part in that project. We had colleagues from Greece, from France, from the Czech Republic, Italy. So that was a very good combination and very intense and lively exchange for all of us.
LUKÁŠ: So the conclusion that cooperation between parliaments is more of a task of the administrative staff of parliaments is valid?
STOURZH: There are different tracks within parliamentary cooperation or even in the parliamentary diplomacy. But today we are really focusing on the cooperation on the administrative level. It's important, as Tijana also was mentioning, that there is the political support and this is needed in all the parliaments to do that. It's needed in the Austrian parliament and it's there and it's needed in the parliaments we're working with.
LUKÁŠ: The little insights you gave me now about the project, I think they are reason enough to be part of that. But, Mrs. Rosandić, may I ask you again, why does the Montenegrin parliament take part in INTER PARES?
ROSANDIĆ: Montenegro is a candidate country for accession to the European Union. And currently we are in the process of negotiating. And it's quite a journey for us. And this process involves vigorous negotiations and preparations to align our country with EU-standards, basically. And to aid this preparation, the EU funds certain projects, to make these goals that we have come into play. And one of those projects was INTER PARES. What made it special for us is this kind of flexibility that we got, which is – let's be honest – not always the case with the European funded projects. They have strict requirements and controls, they still do. It's reasonable, but from the beneficiary point of view, this was a unique opportunity for us. And also what the biggest benefit that we got was is that we had this unique opportunity for the parliament to directly engage with counterparts from seven EU-countries. So it was Austria, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Greece, France, Hungary and Italy. We established this partnership in 2021. And within the two years, there were a lot of doors opened for us to learn from EU-member-state-parliaments. To share the ideas, share the experience and, in the end, to strengthen our parliamentary practices.
LUKÁŠ: Thank you for that. And now the next question pops up immediately because Austria is in such a different place. Why does the Austrian parliament participate, Mrs. Stourzh?
STOURZH: I think that's quite clear because as you know, the Western Balkan region is a focus region of Austria’s foreign policy and also of the activities of the Austrian parliament abroad. So when this proposal came up, it was quite clear that the Austrian parliament would participate in that project. And we are very glad that we did so. It was our first participation within INTER PARES. So we made very good experiences and I think, Tijana, it was a very good cooperation with you and all the other already mentioned countries. And as I said, it's important that it's a flexible instrument and it's really good to have a small group of EU-countries working together with a beneficiary country. And for all of us, it really was good to have this cooperative view. And this is the case for other projects as well. But I think in INTER PARES and especially now with the case of Montenegro, it was shown very well and all of us really could profit from that.
LUKÁŠ: I think so too, and also maybe in between the EU-countries, which are very different themselves.
STOURZH: Exactly and to see the different ways how the parliamentary system is working. Also the daily business is working. So for all of us there is always a great benefit, I would say.
LUKÁŠ: Mrs. Stourzh, INTER PARES, as beautiful as it is with its Latin translated name "amongst equals", is not the only cooperation the Montenegrin or the Austrian parliaments are part of. Can you name a few more for the Austrian parliament?
STOURZH: Yes, of course. As I already said, we try to be very active in the countries of the Western Balkan region. We, on the one hand, have a lot of bilateral activities. We have implemented, are still implementing, the model of the democracy workshop of the Austrian parliament together with other parliaments. We are just on the way to do it in Albania. And the first step was done in June very successfully. We're working together with North Macedonia on the same topic. We had a twinning project together with the Hungarian colleagues and colleagues from Croatia in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 2019 to 2021, which was also a great experience for the Austrian parliament. Where the focus was also on the administration but MPs and members of the different committees were also involved. So there are many other activities. I really would like to mention one project because there is also a link to Tijana. That was a great coincidence and synergy because the Austrian parliament had established a fellowship program where it invites colleagues from the six Western Balkan countries to come to Austria to work with us together for six weeks in different fields. And we had the pleasure to also welcome Tijana as one of our fellows from the Montenegrin parliament. So you, Tijana, stayed there for six weeks last spring. I wanted to mention the project as such because this is really a project from Austria. Actually, the Austrian parliament here is the frontrunner because no other EU-parliament for now has such a program. Of course, the European Parliament has a fellowship program. So we hope that maybe other EU-parliaments would follow. It was a great experience to have you, Tijana, with the other colleagues here. Maybe I'll hand over to you.
ROSANDIĆ: Absolutely, it was wonderful. I too hope that other parliaments will establish this practice in order to have it with not just Western Balkans, to have it with the German Bundestag. This exchange of experience is a good practice. And it really is a privilege to go to another environment which is similar but very different and to work with your colleagues, with professional teams. You always have this introduction into a fellowship and then you have a introduction to, in my case, the Austrian parliament. So general things, daily operations, legislative processes et cetera. But then the fellowship is tailored to what I do back home in Montenegro. And the best part of this is that you get hands-on-experience. So you actually work on a daily basis with people from other countries. And it's not just about observation. You're not only acquiring insights, but you actually learn on the job. You don't come back home empty handed. You bring back a wealth of practices that can be, as I said, adapted and implemented in our parliament. We all have functioning parliaments and what we come back with are things that make our work more effective for MPs, for the parliament.
LUKÁŠ: That sounds so amazing.
ROSANDIĆ: It is. When you talk about it in such general terms it's very abstract. But when you go down into details then it's really valuable.
LUKÁŠ: It really sounds like the best way to learn, because hands-on is the only way you really take something with you. Working with your new colleagues in the same field for six weeks is something really valuable you can bring home. That's such a good program.
ROSANDIĆ: And being in Vienna was also amazing in spring.
LUKÁŠ: We share that.
ROSANDIĆ: Yes.
STOURZH: For the Austrian parliament it's also a really great experience because, of course, we're working together, the whole parliamentary administration. Sometimes we have colleagues who are specialized in the budget process or HR or communication. Naturally, we want and have to include all the colleagues. And after the six weeks, after that experience, they really were also quite happy and astonished that it was such a positive experience. They still are in contact with the fellows. We have kind of a mentor system. In every division our fellows are assigned to there is a person mentoring the colleagues. That is also really good to build up a network which we also try to. The network of the fellows together with our colleagues from the administration.
ROSANDIĆ: If I may add, another thing that was wonderful in this experience is that I was very lucky to be there at the same time with two other fellows – one from Albania, one from Serbia – that also work in the International Department. We were inspired by our experience in the Austrian parliament. We were thinking how funny it is that we come to Austria. We had the Austrian parliament bringing us together. Then we realized, it's a pity that we don't have this among ourselves in the Western Balkans with other countries. That's why we were inspired by this fellowship program. And we had this idea that hopefully might come into fruition one day, that we would replicate what the Austrian parliament has in the Western Balkan countries, across our six countries. We drafted the project concept in terms of reference for this, let's call it joint regional fellowship. It will have similar goals. It's always about exchange and improvement and strengthening and also promoting regional stability and progress, which is also important, especially in light of all our aspirations for the accession to the EU. We'll see what will come about from that. That was one other result of our Austrian fellowship.
STOURZH: We really were impressed and kind of honoured that you took that idea and developed it further. And you were also mentioning something, which was quite important for us, too: regional cooperation is so important. This really is an example of lived regional cooperation, which is great and another kind of result of that project and the program. We are conducting it with a partner in the region in Belgrade, the European fund for the Balkans. So we already achieved some results and further projects.
ROSANDIĆ: That's what I love about international cooperation. You start with one thing and then you end up with ten different results that you never expected.
STOURZH: Exactly. And this is a sense of it also. You have study visits and other kind of activities. Then also with other countries and other countries also get inspired.
LUKÁŠ: This feels so much like what I think the EU should be. I became a fan of this project through this talk. I just really appreciate it. That's good for everybody. I have one more question to the both of you. I think Mrs. Stourzh should start with her answer. In the past episodes, we talked a lot about parliamentary diplomacy. There is some overlap with the type of cooperation we were just talking about, it seems to me. Is that true?
STOURZH: Partly I would say yes, of course, because as we were mentioning already, there is a combination of activities where we involve the MPs. This is also part of parliamentary diplomacy, I would say: Talking with the colleagues on the committee level or also within the bilateral parliamentary groups, which we try to involve when we have study visits. This is also the case when we have – within the framework of the fellowship program – a so-called joint seminar where we bring together two generations. Naturally, we want the group to meet our MPs, especially those who are dealing either with EU-affairs or being the chairs of the respective parliamentary groups. So there are synergies and overlaps, which is very important and very good. To give an example: Two years ago we had a project in North Macedonia. That was also driven by our chair of the standing EU-subcommittee of the National Council and the French counterpart. They were there on the spot to talk with their colleagues of parliament. We had a combined program for the MPs and for the administration. Very often it's the case, I would say.
LUKÁŠ: Do you have the same experience?
ROSANDIĆ: Yes, it's always both. The parliamentary diplomacy and the parliamentary cooperation are intertwined, because they always serve the common goals of the parliament. That is to represent national interests and profound international cooperation with other parliaments. You need diplomacy to lead the way and parliamentary cooperation – from my point of view, because I work there – provides sort of a foundation for parliamentary diplomacy to build upon. In both the parliamentary diplomacy and cooperation, it always comes down to collaborative efforts of both sides. Always with the work of parliamentarians and the staff that are providing the expertise.
LUKÁŠ: We are coming to an end. And last but not least, imagine there is a magic fairy, me. And you could wish three wishes, three things for the development of the European Parliaments. What would they be? Mrs. Stourzh, you start with your wish.
STOURZH: Regarding inter-parliamentary cooperation, coordination and collaboration, it's even more joint efforts, it's building up the networks and learning from each other. And I think there are already many initiatives and elements. From the part of the European Parliament. The so-called Democracy Support Network was built up, which is a very useful tool for that. So I'm very confident and very much looking forward to further efforts and even more joint initiatives, as also had been said by Tijana before.
ROSANDIĆ: I would also say stronger collaborations, information sharing. One big thing that I took from the Austrian parliament, although we are also very good in that realm, is enhanced transparency and openness. Our parliament is very open and very transparent, but the Austrian parliament would be a great example of where all parliaments should go. It's not just about ensuring citizens to have an easy access to information and legislative processes. But it's also the things that promote accountability and trust in democratic institutions. And I think that all of us like that. One more thing that all parliaments should strive to is to increase digitalization and innovation.
LUKÁŠ: Very good. As we sit in this parliament that is really approachable and newly renovated and very beautiful: Can one also visit the parliament in Montenegro? Is it open for the public?
ROSANDIĆ: Yes, actually it's very open. It's actually the most transparent and open parliament in the region, including Croatia and Slovenia. There's some measurements that are taken every year. For several years in a row now, Montenegro's parliament was ranked in the top. But there are a lot of things to do. For example, we had a citizens assembly in Montenegro. It was something like the Conference on the Future of Europe, but on a much smaller scale here. It was about corruption. As much as we think that we are open and transparent, there's still a lot of things to be done. So yes, we are open. We don't have the technology that your parliament has and we don't have the features that your parliament has, which are really wonderfuI. The whole building after the renovation is impressive and the whole idea behind it, behind the openness of your parliament is really impressive. But we are striving for that. Someday, hopefully.
LUKÁŠ: Thank you for the insights in your parliament, in your daily work and in your experiences of the fellowship. Mrs. Rosandić. Three questions to you. Spring or autumn?
ROSANDIĆ: If I had to choose, I would go for autumn. The best seasons, why not winter and summer?
LUKÁŠ: That's way too easy. Life is not like that.
ROSANDIĆ: Yes, but I think I would go for autumn, maybe because it's approaching and we have very hot summers in Montenegro. So autumn brings relief.
LUKÁŠ: Compromise or best solution?
ROSANDIĆ: I would say agreement. You never know what the best solution at one point might be. Best at a certain point in the future? So I would say agreement.
LUKÁŠ: And where does democracy start for you?
ROSANDIĆ: With people, absolutely. With people, free will and inclusion. Openness. Absolutely, with people.
LUKÁŠ: Thank you. Mrs. Stourzh, spring or autumn?
STOURZH: It's difficult because I like all the seasons. All of them have their advantages. But if you really want to have a decision now, I would say spring.
LUKÁŠ: Great. Compromise or best solution?
STOURZH: Very often the compromise is the best solution. Compromise in the best sense. Very often it should be the best solution.
LUKÁŠ: And where does democracy start for you?
STOURZH: Working in the parliament, I would say in the parliament. Butas Tijana also was saying, with people, especially with the youth. That's important to me.
LUKÁŠ: Thank you, Mrs. Rosandić. And also thank you, in the studio, Mrs. Stourzh, for giving us such a rich experience of your cooperation. Thank you so much.
STOURZH: It was a pleasure. And bye bye, Tijana.
ROSANDIĆ: Bye. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to share our experience and for this wonderful talk.
LUKÁŠ: Bye. Und jetzt, wo wir uns von unseren Gästen verabschiedet haben, bedanke ich mich auch bei euch fürs Zuhören. Vielen Dank, dass ihr dabei geblieben seid, ich finde, es war sehr spannend. Und ich hoffe sehr, dass ihr auch das nächste Mal wieder mit dabei seid. Dann wenden wir uns nämlich einem ganz neuen Thema zu. Wieder ein Thema, das uns alle betrifft, wie so oft, nämlich den Gesetzen. Wo, wie und durch wen entsteht überhaupt so ein Gesetz? Das wollen wir uns gemeinsam mit sehr interessanten Gästen näher anschauen. Ich bin mir sicher, das wird spannend und lehrreich. Am besten, Ihr hört nächstes Mal wieder rein! Und wenn euch diese Folge gefallen hat, dann empfehlt sie gerne weiter und abonniert am besten gleich diesen Podcast. Dann verpasst ihr garantiert keine Folge mehr. Abonnieren könnt ihr überall, wo es Podcasts gibt: ob auf Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Deezer oder Amazon Music. Jede Menge Informationen und Angebote rund um das österreichische Parlament und zu unserer Demokratie findet ihr auf unserer Website www.parlament.gv.at und den Social-Media-Kanälen des Parlaments. Falls ihr Fragen, Kritik oder Anregungen zum Podcast habt, dann schreibt uns gerne eine E-Mail an podcast@parlament.gv.at. Also: Ich freue mich schon auf die nächste Folge mit euch. In diesem Sinne sage ich vielen Dank fürs Zuhören. Mein Name ist Tatjana Lukáš – wir hören uns!
Jingle: Rund ums Parlament, der Podcast des österreichischen Parlaments.
Rund ums Parlament, Ep. 30